for agreeing with the sentiments expressed by this feminist (h/t Yursil) who admitted that her life-long ambition of being a 'free' woman has proven fruitless and now believes that happiness can be found in cooking, cleaning, and childrearing?
Here are her own words:
"I want love and children but they are nowhere to be seen. I feel like a UN inspector sent in to Iraq only to find that there never were any weapons of mass destruction. I was led to believe that women could “have it all” and, more to the point, that we wanted it all. To that end I have spent 20 years ruthlessly pursuing my dreams - to be a successful playwright. I have sacrificed all my womanly duties and laid it all at the altar of a career. And was it worth it? The answer has to be a resounding no."
Do check out her entire piece - its definitely worth it. It takes a courageous person to look back on one's highest aspirations and claim them to be empty. I have much respect for her (and a bit of remorse as well).
However, I wanted to use this opportunity to talk about the oft-forgotten male perspective in this issue.
So just as Ms. Lewis had the courage to share an extremely politically incorrect truth, I will muster up similar courage do the same by letting you all in on a secret:
(Deep breath)
Men like their women to stay at home.
There. I said it. Congratulations are in order.
For too long men have supported their working, strong-minded women, saying all the right things ('Absolutely, go ahead and pursue your PhD. We'll just send little Johnny to daycare'). Men have given in to their wives seeking employment in hopes of (too often unnecessarily) raising their combined standard of living ('I agree honey. That new house we want can only be paid for if you go out and work').
But the reality is that men would much rather prefer their women to stay home and care for the children and cook dinner and greet them when they return from a long day at work.
Ladies, if you believe your DH when he tells you otherwise, then you'll probably believe me when I tell you that the Tooth Fairy has a crush on Santa - well, maybe not a real crush, it's more like puppy love.
I've experienced both sides of the fence and I can say without a doubt that life was so much better when my wife was at home. For all parties involved - me, her, and the kids.
Men are babies and need that element of comfort and support that their counterparts provide upon their return from work. Men are also providers and there is a great feeling of cosmic balance when the man feels that he is fulfilling his obligation of providing for the family - that his work is enabling his partner to fulfill her obligations of raising the children and caring for the house. Both partners playing their roles in ensuring domestic harmony.
There is an unimaginable sense of peace and tranquility when the man comes home to a wife who has been protected from having to scramble for her daily sustenance. The wife may not always be refreshed and smiling (due to the serious responsibilities of the home), but she has been spared the ugliness of the outside world.
Yeah, I know. That does come off as a bit sexist and condescending. But does that reflect poorly on me or on our society that looks down on a man for wanting to provide for and protect his family?
Musk, Goodwin, racism and rape
5 days ago
45 comments:
As'salamu Aleikum Br. Naeem :-)
Thanks for your honesty. For me, that is not new, and I don't mind women who choose to become house-mothers, but at the end, it should be their own solo choice, don't you agree?
I however see completely different to become educated (phds etc.) or career women. They are not the same. Education will help the women to know their rights and as a Muslimah to come closer to Allah(swt) (I'd give an example; as a woman, who do you want and feel comfortable with to tell your religious rights; a Muslimah cleric or male? An example, I don't think I'd wear hijab today if my brother or uncle told me to wear it, and if it was not for my mother who taught me the benefits of hijab and the reason and wisdom behind it.
Let me give you another different example. An elderly Muslim man comes to imam and ask for advice regarding sexual relationship with his wife - and apparently they have intimacy issue, and without asking the wife or asking her opinion or even taken consultation with the wife, the imam suggests to the husband that he should marry a younger wife. End of solution. Now, the imam never occurred to him that an elderly women can also be "sexual active" - still after passed the menopause. As you can see, the Imam is doing a great injustice to the wife. Alot Imams don't want engage these issues and similar issues which have quite deal of effect on a woman's entire life.
I could go on and you give another example, but what I am trying to say is; as much the the society needs male doctors, clerics, editors, teachers, nurses etc, the society can't ignore the other half of the population - impossible to avoid them and end up poor prosperous [there was a research about about female scientists in the last 50 years and their contributed to scientific field, because women and men don't think alike])
And to finish, you have to remember women were not created to be only mothers and housewives. They have as much reason to enjoy Allah's(swt) beauty on this world and its challenge as men. And to be parent takes two :-) and will lead a happy marriage if the couples help each other and with agrah and hasanah.
As for career, I can't see why it can't wait until children reach certain age, Allah(swt) a'laim.
Like your "controversial" topics Naeem, but come on! We are not that bad. I could give a male perspective who enjoys to be housewife while the wife is the provider for the family, but that does not mean that man speaks for all males.
Yes
Bismillah
as salamu 'alaykum
It is part of a woman's nature to want to be a homemaker and to get pleasure from homemaking. I was once that woman who wanted to be out there and I saw my home fall apart, my money wasn't really increasing although I brought another pay check, and I lost interest for the smaller things in life.
I enjoyed the article that Yursil linked to, alhamdulillah.
Bravo!
Yes I'm only fourteen, but marriage/married-life is one of the more interesting things I like to ponder about. =D
I cant help but agree with every thing BrNaeem said.
I forget what philosopher exactly said this but it was a Renaissance
we had a debate in class discussing his views.
He believed that men and women both had their spheres, that men were created to work and basically be the dominant person in the family and females were made to be housewife's.
I think that can be related {I hope the feminist-supporters dont bash me now] Sort of like the Islamic view of man and woman. There equal but not the same, thus they have different roles.
Thats how I always view it.
On the other hand, the point about how if both husband/wife work then there is more income and the standard of living does increase. That is true.
Considering, interest and loans. the only way possible to buy a house is really full down payment.
Thus Ive decided the course of my ideal life. (Lol)
Go to an ivy league university (maybe University of Chicago/Northwestern) undergrad with full scholarship. Then Yale grad school with scholarships/part time job? Law school that is. Find an awesome life-long partner in college who I can relate to academically /religiously. Ta-da.
Finish grad school.
Get an awesome at least 100,000 dollar job (times 2, one for me and one from my partner). Live in an apartment for a few years saving money. Once we have enough money buy a house full down payment :D. Then life can truly began aka kids.
I'm sure that every person starts their life with such high, unrealistic expectations and along the way they encounter the harsh cold world BTW at least I have something to work with.
Of course when I hear my dad say to me, "You'll get married last after you marry your two sisters and pay for their 50,000 dollar weddings each."
Then I know that my plan isn't realistic. Lol.
I hope you got a laugh from all that.
[BrNaeem: Man this kid is so unrealistic]
:D
-The Muslim Kid
Salaam,
Just as there are some women who are miserable working and not spending that time with their kids, there are others who are miserable being stay at home moms. I think women should be honest. They shouldn't work and have a demanding career if they would prefer to be at home raising their children, and vice versa.
I think society, here in the US at least, has become more accepting of the idea that, *gasp*, not all women are the same. We don't all have the same internal makeup. Some lifestyle decisions will make some women miserable, and make others happy. It is up to each family to decide what makes the members of the family happiest and most productive.
Salaams dear Naeem,
You're not a sexist jerk, but you are generalizing, and you are speaking from a specific class experience.
There are many, many women who work because they *have* to, not to help buy a MacMansion but to put food on the table for their family.
One of the things that I love about Islam is that though there is consensus on the necessity of the 5 pillars, when it comes to family law there is wide divergence allowed for cultural differences, economic circumstances, etc.
When the Prophet, peace and blessings upon him, moved from Mecca to Medina he went from a more patriarchal society to one that was much less so and that was reflected in his interactions & rulings. The women of Medina were known to be more outspoken, and a number of his own wives worked outside the home.
So I think taking your own feelings about wanting your wife at home, or of that one woman who didn't find the fulfillment she desired in working is about the two of you and not necessarily about the rest of humanity.
There is space for individuality and choice within Islam, feminism, and other ideologies. Have you read Sojourner Truth's words? She was born a slave and became an abolitionist and suffragist:
"That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?"
I think the real point here is that people need to be more introspective and really reflect on who they are, what their desires/circumstances are, and how to achieve a good life (as opposed to the good life).
A family and work life are not necessarily opposed, though certain extreme forms of both may be. More reflection and responsibility can insh'Allah help us achieve the best lives given our character and circumstances.
Warmly,
Baraka
I don't think you are being sexist, because there is a large contingent of men who do want their women to stay home. There are others who are neutral, and then there are those who actively want, or the family requires, that the woman go out to work. While I did find that article interesting when I first read it a few weeks ago, and it was interesting to note that some feminists were coming to grips with biological realizations, like Ms. Rickshaw said, I don't think it can be generalized, either for the men or the women.
For me personally, I am neutral towards my wife working. I came from a family where my mom had to work, but at the same time, she quit because she wanted to be with the kids, and my dad had to do overtime. I have friends whose moms never worked, and they don't want to see their wife working, and don't see a point in it. So I understand both perspectives.
Salam,
The more I learn about upbringing of children and giving them a proper Islamic foundation, the more stronger I feel that my wife should be at home raising our children.
I really dislike the thought of a stranger taking care of my child in daycare. The love this stranger gives my child will never compare to the love my wife can give every day of her life to my children.
From previous comments, I do know that some Muslim women don't have a choice and need to work to put food on the table. However, if we can simplify our lives more (or have the husband work more hours), our Ummah will become much stronger with our Muslim women at home teaching our children and guiding them the right way.
Wasalam,
Slim | www.MuslimWorker.com
Assalamu alaikum,
It's understandable where you're coming from brother. I believe that Islam allows different family situations to develop and exist so long as there is mutual consent between both husband and wife.
In Islam women are allowed to work so long as they are engaged in a halaal professsion and, if they're married, so long as they don't neglect their duties at home. I'm not saying here that working mothers are solely responsible for the household of course; what I meant was that she shouldn't be devoted to her profession at the expense of her husband having to do both his and her share of the household work and childrearing. What I want to especially emphasize is that both mothers and fathers should not let work get in the way of them being involved in their children's lives.
Like someone already mentioned everyone is different some husbands want their women to stay home, others want them to work. Likewise some wives want to stay home while others long to work. As long as the couple is understanding and acommodating of each other's desires there should be no problem.
AA-
Thank you everyone for your very insightful thoughts.
Leaving aside the exceptional scenario where the woman has to work in order to survive, I stand by my original premise for what is the most natural arrangement within a household.
Listen, I'm all for the freedom for a woman to choose whether to work or not. Clearly, that is a God-given right that I dare not attempt to take away.
However, in the circumstances in which we find ourselves nowadays, where society unfairly pressures women into careers, where families are compelled to live a life not sustainable by their financial situation (keeping up with the Jones'-syndrome), where delaying the starting of a family is acceptable (sometimes commendable), where parents are defaulting on their responsibilities towards their children, and so much more - I think it behooves us to step back from the (technically-correct) stance that women have the right to work and instead focus on the macro-societal level.
I think our community leaders should begin taking a more aggressive stance AGAINST women working, especially those who are working simply for the sake of it. Such a campaign should be initiated not to change Islamic law or what not, but to adjust for the imbalance (caused by feminist tendencies) that has been injected into society.
In addition to introducing a more balanced perspective in our households, I proffer that it may even help in curbing materialism, the endemic that is currently plaguing the world.
As'salamu Aleikum,
Naeem, yes, the society pressures women into unhealthy careers and exploit and take advantage of minorities and others in weak positions, but who controls the society? Men do. I think we should focus and fight first those at the top of pyramid.
Regarding taken aggressive stance against working women; how would you do that? You are not dealing with children and don't you think women know what it is best for them? When it comes to parenthood and marriage, let the couples decide how to run their lives. It should be their decision who would provide for the family and how to raise their children.
I don't think you can force women or anyone against their free will. This is indeed a new challenge in our modern time that more and more women participate in the working place, but that should not scare us and get locked up unrealistic idea. I am confident that we can find a way out and I also believe the majority solutions rest on the couple.
Naeem,
Just a question (don't take it offence),
When you are talking about working women, does it include women who plough in the field, street traders (low paid jobs and unwanted) or do you mean academic jobs?
Salaams dear Naeem,
Leaving aside the exceptional scenario where the woman has to work in order to survive, I stand by my original premise for what is the most natural arrangement within a household.
Almost half the world — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.
That's hardly exceptional.
Leaving aside the dire poverty of most of the world - let's look at the middle class in a developing country like Pakistan, where both of my middle class sisters and many female friends live. Hyperinflation is forcing them to work and bring in additional incomes to survive when they would prefer stay at home with the kids until they are in school full-time.
Aside from hyperinflation, rising divorce rates among Muslims (estimated to be at 40% by ISNA), many women also have to work to support their children.
Focusing on the minority of men or women who work *only* to afford a materialistic lifestyle distracts from the fact that being able to stay at home is a luxury for most women.
The points in your 4th paragraph are worth discussing, but the problem is not feminist women working and ignoring their children in the selfish pursuit of Jones-like finery, the problem is an economic system that concentrates wealth in the hands of the few. In the US, 20% of the population owns 84% of the nations' wealth/assets, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80%.
Of course we need to value our children, to honor and appreciate the roles of husbands and wives, & to encourage a less materialistic lifestyle.
But blaming this on working women does not account for far wider systemic crises of which the dissolution of the family is only a symptom.
Warmly,
Baraka
PS - My husband Basil wants me to add that if you're advocating for single-earner families then it should not be gender-specific. A man or a woman may be best equipped to be that single-earner in a given circumstance, but to imply that only a man can be that single-earner is misogynistic.
Interestingly, my shaykh said that once the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings upon him, married Hadhrat Khadija and began his retreats to Hira, he no longer handled her business.
She supported the family materially while he was spiritually prepared by God to receive the Message.
Mash'Allah, there is so much flexibility and food for reflection in our own history.
Warmly,
Baraka
Although I responded over at my blog (and did try to pingback) and I think sister Baraka has put it much better than I have mashaAllah :)
AA- Baraka,
First off, I sincerely applaud you for the patience you've displayed in replying. Most of my readers simply shrug me off as some weirdo. So no matter what you say from here on out, you've earned some serious points here. :-)
Your presentation of the facts has indeed injected a sense of perspective from the global view. I admit that my views are more geared towards developed societies. After all, 'pursuing a career' is not a concept found in impoverished societies, right? So, let's limit the scope of our discussion to what I alluded to in my post above, where I discussed the wife pursuing her PhD or the couple wanting a bigger home.
At the same time, although my post was directed to situations where women have the opportunity to stay home, yet choose to work and pursue a career, I still believe that the most natural, balanced situation in a home, any home the world over, is the one defined by Ms. Lewis and promoted by myself. The fact that the economics of survival prevent such an arrangement doesn't take away from our argument.
I'm not suggesting that working women are the root cause of our societal problems and the breakdown of the family unit. Clearly, divorce rates, absentee fathers, domestic violence, and so on play a far greater role. My point is that in the face of all our societal issues, why further complicate the problem by taking away a beautiful source of domestic harmony. Why *choose* to pursue a career when the damage outweighs the benefit?
As to what Basil mentioned, why is it misogynistic to suggest that men are better geared to support the family and women are better geared to rear the children? Is it misogynistic to suggest that women are hard-coded to stay with the children and care for the home as Ms Lewis has discovered after years of trying it otherwise? Is it misogynistic to suggest that the idea of both sexes being equally equipped to be the breadwinner or the homemaker is antithetical to the natural design of the family unit?
I'm seriously asking.
Finally, the relationship between our dear Prophet (saw) and our dear mother Khadija (ra) is a most beautiful one, full of lessons for everyone. But I find it a bit ironic how we are so quick to cite cultural and social differences between the time of the Prophet (saw) and today when discussing issues such as jihad or polygyny or Shariah, but consider it ok when using our impeccable 'First couple' as an example for women working.
Were the dynamics surrounding the working woman back then the same as they are today? Was she working 9-10 hour days, 5-6 days/week? Were the kids being babysat by the TV or the Internet? Was the family eating out every other night due to the woman's choice to work? These are all factors that need to be considered before we bring up the examples of the Prophet (saw) 'staying at home' and Khadija (ra) working.
Thank you for indulging me.
Your brother,
Naeem
AA- Gess,
"When you are talking about working women, does it include women who plough in the field, street traders (low paid jobs and unwanted) or do you mean academic jobs?"
I'm referring to any job that is willfully taken by the woman in order to 'empower' herself, whether financially or socially or academically, at the expense of domestic harmony.
"I don't think you can force women or anyone against their free will."
Of course, I'm not suggesting such a course of action. I'm saying we need to counter the forces of society that pressure women to join the workforce by pressuring them to stay at home, even if it means living in a smaller home or affording one car instead of two.
"Listen, I'm all for the freedom for a woman to choose whether to work or not. Clearly, that is a God-given right that I dare not attempt to take away."
Could you maybe explain how it is a "God-given" right?
Every mother should stay home period. If any mother, whose husband is capable of working and providing for the family, says that she wants to work, she is selfish and uncaring for the greater spiritual needs of her children and the rest of Muslim society.
It is the mother, yes the mother, that has Jannah at her feet - and for a reason! It is she who spends (or atleast should be) the most time with her children, cooking, cleaning, caring for, nurturing and comforting her children - the next generation of scholars, doctors, and salah-making Muslims.
/sarcasm switch on/
But of course we should promote the dissolution of the family nucleus. We should in fact encourage women to work so that she can remove the chains of motherhood from her kneck and liberate herself from raising the next generation! Daycare suffices for proper islamic cultivation! Let someone else raise our children, after all we are not responsible for their upbringing, the daycare providers and teachers are!
\sarcasm off\
The Nabi 'alayhis salam said,
"All of you are raa' (shephards), and all of you will be asked about your flock!"
Women who "want" to work, though needn't, are foolish imbeciles who think only for themselves and their baatil whims.
Thank you Br. Naeem for such an inspiring post to rant on!
The best three words in the post: "Men are babies" :D
On a serious note, my maid is just one of the thousands of women who leave their countries, homes, and children to work. She is poor, very poor and her husband is jobless. He is illiterate and worked on daily wages which weren't enough. Now he looks after their daughter in Philippines while the mother works with us. I feel for her every day and thank God every day that I am not in a similar position.
I work but I make sure I return home before the children return from school. I'm a lot more educated than my husband but he earns more because I choose to work part-time. I have no problem with that because all thanks due to God, we are happy and have money. I guess if we didn't I would have had to work full-time. It all depends on how lucky you are in terms of the number of meals you can have in a day.
Sis Baraka hits the nail on the head. Best response so far.
Salaams dear Naeem,
I always appreciate stimulating & civil discourse so thank you for starting this thread :)
I don't throw Islamic examples around lightly, nor do I believe they can be separated from their context. They are guidelines, but we have to use our intellect in applying them to the here and now.
So, I absolutely agree that the situation was very different in the amount of time "at the job" each day, the prevalence of joint families where children were nurtured and cared for by family members or very close domestic servants/slaves even when the parents were busy, the obvious lack of TV as a babysitter, etc.
What I meant to illustrate was that we have *flexibility* in our guidelines. While the emphasis is on a healthy family, it is up to each couple to discuss how that is going to manifest in their lives based on personality and economic or other circumstances. And, their decisions may also differ over time, given changing circumstances.
I would rather that we equipped Muslims with the communication, goals, and life skills to have those discussions than to set rules and regulations about what they can or cannot do because we can never completely account for the multiplicity of personalities and circumstances.
As far as misogyny: Again, I respect that people's lives may demand different choices from my own. If we as a community bring up our kids with an emphasis on family over material goods then I trust them to make good decisions when they grow older.
Therefore I also accept that a single-income family may have the man or woman as that earner and I also accept that that role may change over their lives together.
E.g., I know a very high-powered female professional whose partner has chosen to be the homemaker. He stayed home with the kids full-time when they were young, and still keeps an immaculate home, cooks, etc. They decided that their balance worked best that way and their children are thriving, so who am I to differ with them?
Clearly, divorce rates, absentee fathers, domestic violence, and so on play a far greater role. My point is that in the face of all our societal issues, why further complicate the problem by taking away a beautiful source of domestic harmony. Why *choose* to pursue a career when the damage outweighs the benefit?
I agree with your first sentence and believe that *those* are the issues community leaders/parents need to take the aggressive stance on, rather than only on women working outside of the home.
One of the major problems that I see in our community is that we are raising children, not adults. If we are brought up to be mature, reflective, and respectful adults many of those problems are going to decrease and thus enable more women to take time off to devote themselves completely to their families when their children are young.
Frankly, many women I know achieve advanced degrees and work outside of the home because in the back of their minds (given the high rates of divorce among Muslims) they know they cannot depend upon a husband to always be around. And I've seen that happen time and time again - where a woman gives up her career to be at home and then is at the mercy of a man who does not respect her or their children. Financial autonomy is also important because it provides an escape route for women in difficult marital situations.
At the end of the day, if we have not let the ihsan and rahma and sakina of Islam infuse our souls then I honestly believe that we will continue to see the breakdown of our families and communities.
We agree that healthy families are the foundation of health societies. Where we disagree perhaps is how to go about reclaiming the space for healthy families to thrive. I believe that a greater emphasis on the rights and responsibilities of all humans to each other suffused with the mercy, peace and beauty that Islam brings to each relationship will help us far more than making sweeping statements that women should stay at home, etc.
Set a healthy family as a goal and let people figure out what works best in each individual family. If we've done our job right, it will work out insh'Allah.
Warmly,
Baraka
AA-
@Abu Layth, "Could you maybe explain how it is a "God-given" right?"
Meaning, that Islamically, women have the right to work. There is nothing inherently forbidden. Now, whether they should or not, that is the discussion taking place here.
@Suroor, while the case of your maid is very clear (her need to work is unquestionable), would you care to explain why you work? You admit to the need to be home for the kids, so you've made the decision that family takes priority over work.
But my question is why work? Is it boredom? depression? lack of fulfillment?
If I were in a position to NOT work, I would jump at the opportunity, choosing to spend my time with social work, dawah, education, etc.
Are not those options more preferable to women who have the option?
@Farzana, "Sis Baraka hits the nail on the head. Best response so far."
Really? Best response? I actually thought mine was better. :-P
@Baraka, "At the end of the day, if we have not let the ihsan and rahma and sakina of Islam infuse our souls then I honestly believe that we will continue to see the breakdown of our families and communities."
And with that beautifully balanced response, I will leave you with the last word.
I would hate it if my future husband expected me to work but I wouldn't hate it as much if he expected me NOT to work!I have seen many in my parents generation (who happen to be immigrants) forcing their wives to go out there and work.These wives have never worked before and now all of a sudden have to fit into the "western" society and work.It totally sucks.
Asslamualaikum Br. Naeem
I respect your courage to reveal your 'secret'.:)
As a Muslimah, I fully agree with your point of view.
Morover, i feel it is acceptable for her to do take up jobs (of course with the consent of her husband) if she can perfectly maintain a balance between her professional life and family life, especially in a case where she's working from home itself.
Salaam again dear Naeem,
You said, "But my question is why work? Is it boredom? depression? lack of fulfillment?
If I were in a position to NOT work, I would jump at the opportunity, choosing to spend my time with social work, dawah, education, etc.
Are not those options more preferable to women who have the option?"
Luckily, my option is just that - education. Teaching is the greatest learning experience. There is so much I learn from teaching which I would never if I didn't. And then I apply that with my children.
Believe me brother, when you are old Inshallah and retire you will hate to stay at home all day :)
There are NO defined roles for either gender in Islam...or in life in general...just as some women are "born" to be mothers and relish staying home with their children...others do not find the role comfortable or managable once they are mothers...and others prefer never to make being a mother part of their identity...but no matter which role she chooses (or is chosen for her)...society always has something to say about it...
btw...I find it interesting that the reason Khadija admired the Prophet and approached him for marriage initially was because of his work ethic and ability to turn a profit for her...but then as soon as they were married...he basically retired...
/There are NO defined roles for either gender in Islam/
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)." 4:34
This ayah does state a ROLE for both genders!
/Meaning, that Islamically, women have the right to work. There is nothing inherently forbidden. Now, whether they should or not, that is the discussion taking place here.
/
To say that someone has the "God given right" to work - generally - would need a clear text stating exactly that.
Furthermore, one could argue in the law that a mother working could cause harm in the home (and thus society as a whole) - and so one could use principles such as sadd adh-dhara'i to establish prohibition.
Another reason for prohibition is if it is the contract of marriage.
Another reason for plausible prohibition is fear of fitnah, a principle utilized by the Hanafis at times.
Suroor, why would he hate staying at home if the home is a peaceful, loving environment?
Many men wish they didn't have to work outside of the home and could do something from home, work on their land, and so on. and many men do that. If thousands of women can enjoy staying at home, why can't men?
As I read all the responces, so jealous how BrNaeem manages to start an intellectual conversation on his blog and all I get is some creep "Muhammed Ali" cursing me out. Lol.
----
"@Farzana, "Sis Baraka hits the nail on the head. Best response so far."
Really? Best response? I actually thought mine was better. :-P"
I second that. :D.
----
"/There are NO defined roles for either gender in Islam/
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)." 4:34"
I completely agree with Abul Layth! As I mentioned before about "spheres" how men and women are equal but different.
I cant help but say it straight up. WOMEN WERE MADE TO BE HOUSEWIVES. and men were made to work. its really that simple, that's the Islamic way of life as I have seen it. Of course there isn't anything wrong with it, but you hindering with the way of life.
Children, need the love and companionship of their mothers. There just isn't another way to fulfill it. My Sunday school teacher once told me, "Women can be the worst, most cruel creatures or the best, most lovable, kind creatures." I think that's true. :D. In terms of love, a father can only WISH to give the love a mother can, it comes naturally.
Haven't you ever heard of those people, "Motherhood changed me", when was the last time someone said, "Fatherhood changed me". (Maybe you have heard it, the point is its not common)
The other point, my uncle, who is pretty hard core conservative, he lives in Pakistan. He told me that women should stay in the house unless completely necessary. I looked it up and found this hadith with commentary:
"HADEETH 30.Rasulullah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam said: "A woman should be kept concealed. When she emerges from the home without necessity, Shaytaan makes her appealing in the sight of men." (TIRMIZI)
Evil persons are attracted to her and begin following her or mention her in the gathering of men. This implies that she should leave the house only out of dire necessity. Today it has become a fashion to adorn the burqa and to embroider the trousers so as to attract men. The burqa was originally made for the purpose of purdah, but we have made it an object of adornment."
Just a fourteen year old's two cents on the subject.
"Thank you Br. Naeem for such an inspiring post to rant on!"
I second that too.
-The Muslim Kid
Men are the maintainers...but what if the man doesnt work and the wife does...or what if they both work and she makes more money then him and contributes more to the bill paying etc...then that would make her a degree over him (strength is not the right word there...even if it was...there are plenty of women that are stronger then men...so that wouldnt define gender roles either)...as for the rest of the ayat...it mentions her responsibility to guard herself while her husband is away...thats not a specific gender role...men are required to guard themselves as well...
oh yes...reminding us of the fact that men are allowed to beat their wives (pardon me...lightly)does state a gender role...because women are not given the same right...so there you have ONE defined gender role in Islam...men can beat the women...women cannot beat the men...nice
AA- Abu Layth,
Thank you for your thoughts...very nice.
My usage of God-given rights is the same way that its my right to water my lawn or wear a hat. As the basic Usuli principle states, 'the source of everything is halal.'
Of course my right to water my lawn can be restricted in times of droughts and I can be forced to take off my hat when I need to be identified, but that doesn't take away from the basic rule that those acts are permissible.
Similarly, the fundamental ruling on women working is permissibility. Of course, as you states, circumstances may alter that ruling.
Personally, I don't believe the circumstances have arisen where we can change the ruling on this issue. That's why I advocated for a re-education campaign in our communities that highlights the importance of women caring for the home over pursuing careers.
WS @ all those who gave me salams...
/Men are the maintainers...but what if the man doesnt work and the wife does...or what if they both work and she makes more money then him and contributes more to the bill paying etc...then that would make her a degree over him (strength is not the right word there...even if it was...there are plenty of women that are stronger then men...so that wouldnt define gender roles either)...as for the rest of the ayat...it mentions her responsibility to guard herself while her husband is away...thats not a specific gender role...men are required to guard themselves as well...
oh yes...reminding us of the fact that men are allowed to beat their wives (pardon me...lightly)does state a gender role...because women are not given the same right...so there you have ONE defined gender role in Islam...men can beat the women...women cannot beat the men...nice\
I strongly believe your outlook is flawed for the following reasons:
1) You are mixing multiple issues, when the issue is one: mothers should stay home.
The Divine law states such, and that is the bottom line. The fact that you spew some feministic rant about "beating" and all the other hypothetical buckwas unrelated to the fact that the mother should stay home, has no affect upon the original topic. In fact, it is a diversion tactic used by you to avoid the hard truth; society is better when a mother stays home and nurtures the roots of society! Her role therein is far superior to any other role you can muster for her. She will be saving the nation and community of Islam just by raising her children firmly upon Islam.
2) So now that we have torn down the satanic wall of enslaving women to the dollar, dinar, and euro, let us comment briefly on the other supposed contentions you have.
So you raise a series of hypothetical situations; what if the wife works and the husband doesn't...It is obligatory for a man to provide for his home - that is the bottom line. If a woman works, she does so out of her free will - and here we are talking within the confines of the shari'ah - I do not care for non-Muslim men or even "Muslim" men who make their wives work, in the law they are atrocious fitnah makers, spreading evil through the homes of the Muslims. In the DIVINE law it is the man who will bare responsibility for provision, and not women. So is the wife who works to provide for the house more virtuous than her husband...the answer is an obvious yes due to analogy within the verse. However, what Allah has stated here is what is commanded by Him, His way, and not the way of the mundane earthly scum! so saying "Men are the maintainers of women..." is not some societal "norm" being stated, it is the command of Allah in the Qur'an - and a gender role propagated by the creator of the heavens & earth! So the Qur'an refutes your false supposition - and there are certainly gender roles in Islam!
Then your ridiculous buckwas:
/oh yes...reminding us of the fact that men are allowed to beat their wives (pardon me...lightly)does state a gender role...because women are not given the same right...so there you have ONE defined gender role in Islam...men can beat the women...women cannot beat the men...nice/
It alludes to a higher role that you have missed. It is that the "man"'s - an entity that provides for his home and is of sound religious character - duty is to keep religious order within the home, safeguarding it from the evils of the rest of society.
So when is this "light beating" issue employed, only in the case of nushooz - and steps precede it. The "beating" as is translated in english, is one that does not cause physical harm etc. So the whole point is to get her attention to stop the haraam she is doing.
A note that should be mentioned here. The scholars stipulate that if a Halal will cause more harm than benefit it should be left. So it is permitted for the man to perform this "light beating", however, if such will result in her going psycho - like most westernised women - then such should be left for the intended results will not be achieved - and that is that she stops doing the Haraam!
Instead, westernized women would continue committing the nushooz as a rebellious stunt against Allah and his commands. So just as our Shaykh 'Ala'udin told us, do not employ this tactic with the westernized woman, for her awareness of Divine commands is not like the awareness of the Muslim raised daughters amongst the solidified Muslim nations.
In other words, westernized women have more societal harm than those of the non-westernized ones, and so if you are an unlucky one to be married to such a woman - i.e. one spiritually spoiled by the ways of feminism and capitalism - such is not to be employed.
My wife tells me that I am being harsh with you "color" - and the rest of those who think like you. Rather, I believe the ilk that perverts society by removing the Divine ordiances of Allah should be treated with sternness. Simply put, I, and millions of other rational human beings (including non-Muslims) am sick and tired of feministic tirades by individuals such as yourself, promoting a "westernised" watered down version of the Divine Law. People who hold the view you forward are simply following a recent fad. What is the result of the fad? Look around at the western societal ills - mainly children who do not even "know" their mother. Children are getting attached to their daycare providers, their teachers etc, simply because their mother feels that she wants to work.
How many childrens' lives have been destroyed because of this satanic methodology of thrusting a fragile, and precious nurturer into the world of "men" - a world fraught with evils and paganistic practices. A world a woman should be teaching her children to ethically live in, not one she should be promoting over her divinely commanded duties of cultivating the next generation, serving her husband, and the greater command of Obeying her Lord!
So the Islamic outlook is one of "What does my Lord say and want of me..." it is not "What does my pathetic whims demand of me!"
As Allah says:
"If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong."
Was-Salam
You brought up the ayat that mentions beating...since you introduced it into the discourse...it was fair game to comment on it.
Also...you and many other Muslims...leave loooooong comments about what Sharia SHOULD be...but what you and other Muslims seem to over look time and again is that what it should be and what it actually is and how its practiced are TWO different things entirely.
We are living in the real world...the real world requires women to work whether as Muslims they "should or not"...whether or not the man is the "maintainer" may have meant something back in the day when ONLY men worked or at the very least very few women worked...but now days its not a cut and dried issue...raising children is a job for TWO parents...the ideal situation is TWO parents spend equal portions of time with their children raising them and teaching them what it means to be a decent caring person in this harsh demanding world...that is not a job ONLY mothers are obligated to fullfil.
And one more thing...Khadija was obviously Prophet Mohammeds maintainer...as she was the one that had the money...took care of him and provided him with the funds so he did NOT have to work and provide for her and could spend his days in contemplation etc...and that was BEFORE he took on his position as Prophet...so the lines are not always so clear cut and dried...yes?
Coolred,
We are discussing what Divine law IS not what it "should be". Get it right.
/the real world requires women to work whether as Muslims they "should or not"/
No it doesn't. There are many ways women can choose not to work.
/whether or not the man is the "maintainer" may have meant something back in the day when ONLY men worked or at the very least very few women worked...but now days its not a cut and dried issue./
Non-sense! Many in America & the west refuse to force the woman into capitalistic exploitation!
Bottom line is it is a CHOICE. If it is somehow NOT a choice for example "necessity" - life or death kind of thing - then the law makes the exception.
/raising children is a job for TWO parents...the ideal situation is TWO parents spend equal portions of time with their children raising them and teaching them what it means to be a decent caring person in this harsh demanding world...that is not a job ONLY mothers are obligated to fullfil. /
I agree that it is the job of the man as well. This is actually mentioned directly in the Qur'an where Allah states,
"O ye who believe! save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who flinch not (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded." [66:6]
However, in the law it clearly stipulates that the "Man" is the maintainer and as such he will not get to spend as much time with the children as say the mother.
Demanding that he spend equal time with the children as the mother is unfounded and has no premise in the law. Whereas the mother is the "raa'" or shephard of the children as stipulated in the hadith.
/Khadija was obviously Prophet Mohammeds maintainer/
Abrogated by the verse of maintenance which was revealed some 10 years after Khadijah ('alayhas salam). Islam was revealed in 23 years, not 1, and Khadijah 'alayhis salaam was only alive during the early part of the message, not the later part where it was clearly stipulated by the Divine that men are the maintainers of women.
If we used your same line of thought we could say Alcohol and pork are permitted in Islam as well since the early Muslims were not forbidden to indulge in them! Both were forbidden later in the message. And you are wrong, the matter is very clear!
was-Salam
ROTFL @
"In other words, westernized women have more societal harm than those of the non-westernized ones, and so if you are an unlucky one to be married to such a woman - i.e. one spiritually spoiled by the ways of feminism and capitalism - such is not to be employed."
Why don't you tell us what you really think of us "westernized" women? Ha, ha!
And what if Khadija had not passed away when she did...would that verse knock her back down and place her below the Prophet on the maintainer/maintainee standing?
Im talking about what Divine Law SHOULD BE...but what is practiced is not even close...so you get it right. Talking about Sharia law like its some kind of pie in the sky, butterflies and rainbows scenario is foolish considering there is not ONE so called Islamic country in the world that practices proper Sharia...so what you are discussing is simply WISHFUL THINKING SHARIA LAW...plain and simple.
Hmm. I feel guilty as living in Western society you get brainwashed into this whole, "Equality" thing, but I agree with Abul Layth
Every word this person has said has been justified, I cannot agree more.
Ps. Listen to your wife, You sound a bit harsh though. :D
-The Muslim Kid-
/And what if Khadija had not passed away when she did...would that verse knock her back down and place her below the Prophet on the maintainer/maintainee standing?
Im talking about what Divine Law SHOULD BE...but what is practiced is not even close...so you get it right. Talking about Sharia law like its some kind of pie in the sky, butterflies and rainbows scenario is foolish considering there is not ONE so called Islamic country in the world that practices proper Sharia...so what you are discussing is simply WISHFUL THINKING SHARIA LAW...plain and simple.
/
Before Divine law can be practiced in the society as a whole, it must first be implemented within the home. The issues we have mentioned here are issues of personal choice; mainly the mother staying home, men giving her the means to cultivate the home properly, as well as create a sense of taqwa driven livlihood within the children.
The same for the issue of nushooz in Islamic law. It is really a private matter. How does one deal with a "westernised" woman who is violent, fornicatress, has no realization of Islam...all of these issues are perfectly applicable in the home.
Furthermore, what Islam should be is not for you to say. It is for Allah, His Messenger, and the Jama'ah of Muslims to forward.
Allah says in the Qur'an,
"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination." [4:59]
It is the Divine law we are obligated to refer to, not the whims of you or I. The Islamic state starts within, and by its internal realization, it becomes realized by the Muslims on the outside. Do not, then, run away from the commandments of Allah by hiding behind a sad excuse of "no islamic state".
The Prophet Muhammad ('alayhis salam) said, "In what I have commanded you to do, do as much of it as you can."
/ROTFL @
"In other words, westernized women have more societal harm than those of the non-westernized ones, and so if you are an unlucky one to be married to such a woman - i.e. one spiritually spoiled by the ways of feminism and capitalism - such is not to be employed."
Why don't you tell us what you really think of us "westernized" women? Ha, ha!
April 11, 2009 5:30 PM
/
I think "westernised" women are a plague to society as a whole. They are stuck in their disneyland syndrome, spoiled by the mundane, and have no sense of "submission/Islam". After all, the "liberation" ideals of "feminism" have taught young females to question divine authority - which in fact leads to the destruction of the spiritual self - the rebellion against Providence and the contempt for Providence's sunnah! That is what I really think about westernised women! They are a calamity upon humanity!
It takes a man of incredible wisdom, impeccable adab, and perservearance to deal with females who do not know how to be women, who do not know how to submit to their Lord!
was-Salam
Salaam,
Baraka and CoolRed are my favorite posters in this thread. I couldn't have said it any better!
Salam
WOW!!! What a topic and responses .
First of all, why do people assume that when a women/mother is working she is not cooking, cleaning, taking care of her kids, getting them to do homework, taking them to their activities, etc etc etc ? They are not mutually exclussive and working mothers to come home unless they are stationed at space ship.
I know some women who dont work but they dont cook,clean and take care of kids.
I think the main thing is what one's priorities are.
And being in a rat race to buy the biggest and latest thing is simply wrong/crazy, no matter if one or both spouses are working.
Different people work for different reasons. My reasons could be right for me but not you and yours could be very wrong for me:) Alhamdullilah for flexibility in Islam.
Wasalam
UmmOsman
Abul Layth...well lets hope no "westernized woman" ever has the misfortune of having you in her life...she will be the loser for it.
In the words of my westernized Mother...if you cant say something nice then dont say anything at all....and I believe the Prophet said...either say good or remain silent...same o same o...and my Mother isnt even a Muslim but she obviously has better manners than you do.
Salaams,
Whoa. It never fails to amaze me when civil discussions degenerate into harsh words.
Pharaoh is an arch-villain in the Qur'an and yet Prophets Moses & Aaron, peace be upon them, were first encouraged to speak gently to him in the hopes that he might become heedful:
20:43-44: Go, both of you, unto Pharaoh. Lo! he hath transgressed (the bounds). And speak unto him a gentle word, that perhaps he may heed warning or fear (God).
How much more deserving then are fellow Muslims or other seekers of truth of our gentleness, subhan'Allah?
Also, this verse, which I love:
16:125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
Insh'Allah may God guide us to patience, wisdom, and the most beautiful of words and actions in our discussions, especially when we disagree, ameen.
Warmly,
Baraka
/if you cant say something nice then dont say anything at all/
What you deem to be "nice" I do not. And what you deem not to be nice, is certainly the truth.
The truth, in other words, is not always nice! You have been thoroughly squelched.
to rickshaw: Even pharoah was not a feminist who distorted Islam for personal gain! He made his kufr clear; he did not conceal it with claims of scripture.
was-salam...
AA- All,
Its clear that this discussion has run its course and everyone has expressed their opinions. As Baraka mentioned, its very sad that it couldn't be done in a respectful manner.
Let us all strive to embody the Sunnah of our dearly beloved Prophet (saw) when confronted with people we may disagree with.
Whether or not I have been "thoroughly squelched" (an interesting choice of words) is completely your own opinion...which means as much to me as ...well...nothing I can think of really.
You completely degenerated "westernized women" in your little kid rant up there...apparently oblivious to the fact that many of them are perfectly decent people who would never consider degenerating you as a means to "win an argument" (such as it is)...so your manners, or lack there of, are showing. If the best you can do to "win" is throw the other person under the bus...then maybe you would be better to sit with some 'westernized women" and let them teach you a thing or two about how to treat people. Im sure it will be educational for you...and education should be strived for until our deaths. yes?
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