The Saudi Religious Police (also known as Mutawwa) have been getting a bad rap for quite some time. In addition to all the negative energy directed towards them by the general public, they've come under greater media and governmental scrutiny for recent cases of extreme abuse.
I would normally not add fuel to this fire (as opinions are very emotionally charged from both sides), but I couldn't avoid chiming in on my dear friend Shariq's first blog entry over at Minjid.com.
The brother presents his case for supporting 'the Commission' as they provide an invaluable service to society.
I say hogwash.
My gripe is not with their abuses of power (which even their supporters condemn), but with the entire premise of enforcing Islamic principles. It makes no sense that propagation of (selected) virtue and removal of (selected) vice be forced down the throats of the masses.
And even if the Mutawwa were to succeed in covering every woman and forcing every man to pray, then what? Would that magically transform Saudi society into an Islamic utopia? All this obsession with the outer forms while ignoring the internal states is pure folly and doomed to failure.
The Prophet (saw) was sent with the primary mission to perfect akhlaq (moral character, etiquettes) - a lofty goal that can never be accomplished with superficial tactics of forcing people to pray and cover. The proper way is to focus on the hearts and attract people to the balanced teachings of our beloved Prophet (saw).
Honey. Vinegar. Flies. It's really not that complicated folks!
Why not teach people (dare I suggest *by example*, gasp!) to treat each other nicely, renounce bribery, avoid littering, give each other the benefit of the doubt, carry out fair financial transactions, treat maids and drivers with kindness, shun domestic abuse, embrace education, properly queue in lines, drive like humans, and so on?
These principles of justice, kindness, and civility are more important to society than ensuring that every strand of hair is covered or every man is praying in the masjid.
After all, what has decades of harassing unrelated couples and closing businesses at prayer times gotten them?
Internet pornography, Satellite dishes in over 90% of homes, and a flourishing underground homosexual society.
They've simply swept the problems off the streets and into the homes. How convenient.
Yay for a forced veneer of piety!
The Mutawwa consistently choose form over substance which has always proven to be a failed approach. Hearts remain unaffected by their brutish efforts.
They have disenfranchised the vast majority of Saudi youth with their shallow attempts at enforcing virtue and thwarting vice. They may have 'cleaned up' the streets of Saudi Arabia, but the hearts remain as polluted as ever.
Is that the type of Islamic society our dear Prophet (saw) struggled for?
Note: My rant is equally applicable to Iran, Afghanistan, or any other nation attempting to police piety.
WAW
2 days ago
35 comments:
assalaamu alaikum. Akhi kareem, i dont know what you guys are doing here? is this like the blog world cup or something? ali has one post, u post another?
anyway, i would do you one up and say that an even more important objective than that of perfecting the akhlaq behind the sending of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam was as the ayat says: "qad aflaha man ta zakka..."
just briefly Naeem, the mutawwa's as far as i know are not there to affect the hearts of the people per se, that is not their main purpose.
Their purpose goes hand in hand with that of the ulama and the du'aat.
Dont look at them as the only tactic being used to maintain and islamic society. They are just a part and parcel of the whole. One of the other main parts are the teachings of the scholars and the caller's. And i believe we discussed this the other night, and it can be rightly said that for a person who doesnt know even what the ulama are teaching, when they are teaching, where or anythiing like that, than this person should be very careful before he points his fingers towards them.
Again, as we accuse each other so many times thursday night, "i am really dissappointed akhi", oh and my favorite: "That was rather shallow of you naeem"!
I dont see much benefit coming from this post. Maybe if we want to reach the truth, why dont we get together one of these days and try to understand how Al-amr bil ma'roof wa nahiy anil munkar" was carried out during the prophets time, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam and during the time of the khulafaa raashideen. This will help us determine whether what the mutawwa are doing is really correct or just some made up hogwash by the "wahhabis"! Allah knows best.
Subhan Allah akhi... to jump to so many conclusions, to mention that they've facilitated the sins of people in their homes?
They've simply swept the problems off the streets and into the homes. How convenient.
Allahol mosta'aan akhi... very dangerous of you to generalize to such an extent leaving the risk of people unaware of the truth to jump to false conclusions about a nation's way of promoting virtue.
Allah subhanaho wa ta'ala says:
"You are the best community that has been raised for mankind. You enjoin good and forbid evil and you believe in Allah." [Aal-e-Imran, 3:110].
And further mentions an attribute of the believers:
"The believers, men and women, are protectors of each other: they enjoin what is right and forbid what is evil."[Tauba, 9:71]
And opposite to the actions of the believers are those who:
"The hypocrites, both men and women, proceed one from another. They enjoin the wrong and forbid the right..."[Tauba, 9:67]
We all know the famous saying of the beloved prophet Muhammed Sallalahu alaihi wa sallam:
"Whoever amongst you sees an evil should change it with his hand. If he is unable to do that then with his tongue. If he is unable to do that, then with his heart, and that is the weakest level of Iman." [Muslim]
Now it is apparent that the job of fulfilling this VITAL role needs to be done by those with knowledge and know how, Allah subhanaho wa ta'ala says:
"Let there arise out of you a group inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong. They are the ones to attain success."[Aal-e-Imran, 3:104]
As we have all mentioned several times that although there are unfortunately cases that were not handled correctly by our brothers in the Commission, it does not undermine the necessity of such a task as you unfortunately have in your blog post.
We ask Allah to guide us all to that which is the truth, and to aid those who strive to promote that which is good and forbid that which is evil. I recommend we aid the cause by offering constructive criticism to our brothers in the Commission rather than bash them every time a person opens their mouth, picks up their pens, or types away on their keyboard.
Allahol mosta'aan.
If I ruled a country, I would certainly employ Muttawas. But I would use more wisdom and training in how they handle things. It is not a bad thing to close stores in salah time, I like it actually. And I prefer this society over Duabi where there is wide spread nudity. So it's good they keep the general population in check, but they need to grow in their responsibilities, ie all the vice Naeem mentioned should not be ignored. But at the same time, one can't ignore the good they carry out, just need to improve on ikhlaaq (aka customer service).
AFTER ALL, WE ARE IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY WITH VERY UN-MUSLIM MUSLIMS....
I 100% agree with you Naeem. There are so many problems in Saudi society, obviously I'm not going to generalise the whole population, but due to being forced to wear certain clothes has led to many sisters not wanting to cover and as soon as they hop onto a plane and out of the country the short shorts and barely there t-shirts come out (no i'm not exagerating).
I've been in the workplace when non-muslims are around and seen sisters take off their hijabs, fix their hair and then recover again. It's all done with a sense of 'look i'm okay you know, i'm just like you really'. Many sisters feel they have something to prove to many of their non-muslim colleagues out here and the need for acceptance is very great. They've come to see the hijab as a symbol of their oppression rather than a protection...after all what use is a niqab when you still get men blatantly ogling you and asking for your number. Saudi society has many problems - the biggest for me being the level of rudeness and arrogance. I think Saudi's have become complacent and think because this is the birthplace of Islam that they're 'okay'. Insha'allah I pray for an opening in their hearts and minds (to use a much disliked phrase!).
Like brother shariq said, the role of the mutawween goes hand in hand with the efforts of the du'aat and the ulama. If we are to build a truly islamic society, then one cannot work without the other.
If it is only admonition from the ulama and no enforcing of islamic law, then we'll simply have islam limited to religious circles/lectures and masaajid. And there is no practical islam to be seen on the street.
On the other hand, if we have no admonition from the ulama but simply enforcement of islamic law over the people, we are sowing the seeds of discontent.
So, to sum up, a balance of both is required and writing off one or the other doesn't help.
Wow, there are people outside of KSA who really think that men with sticks beating people to go to the masjid and screaming "bidah! shirk! haram!" and foaming at the mouth all the time are needed for a truly Islamic society? What a facile understanding of Islam, politics in KSA, and the nature of God in general. God help us.
As-salamu'alaykum warahmatulah wabarakatuh,
Brother Shariq commented that the role of the mutawween goes hand in hand with the efforts of the du'aat and the ulama.
This is true, but it hasn't happen that way in Saudi Arabia. Perhaps the ulama are sleeping? because their tag-team combination with the mutawween, in Saudi Arabia, has not produced much, but seems to have brought about one of the most materialistic, arrogant, rude, wasteful, over-eating, and possibly racist, etc societies in the Middle East. Although, still one of the best countries to live .., maybe because the superficial orderliness of morality does help one to get by - at least outwardly. But we need to do better than that.
First, we need to admit that there is a problem brothers. This is not the time for cover up and denial. By admitting our errors we are well poised for Islah (rectification). Half of the problem solved.
We need to change our approach to a more basic and traditional one, not a modern reformatory one.
We need to place a lot of emphasis on rectifying the allegiances in our hearts, of making the heart soley and purely for Allah. You cannot plant vegetables on a chemical dump. Even if it grows because you subvert the land with a concotion of fertilisers, the crops are not going to be nutritious. They will harbour health hazard and will most likely taste bad. And you will feel the wrath of eating such crops... perhaps in the bathroom or wherever it leads you! Basically, the soil needs to be revamped, neutralised, returned back to its original state and then nourished before anything useful can grow on it.
We don't want to be seen living like the best and then die like the rest. We owe it to our Prophet (alehi salam) and our own selves to do better than that. Further, we should be shy and ashamed before Allah not to do better than this. This is not a question of heaven and hell. It is clear that the muslim will go to jannah (inshallah) by virtue of the Kalima on his tongue. But shouldn't he be grateful for this honour? Shouldn't he be ashamed of acting like a kafir/zindiq/munafiq/etc whilst he has been honoured in this way?
The muttawa system does and will indeed prevent vice, but it can NEVER enjoin good. Good is something that only comes from Good. You learn generousity (i.e. heart-felt generousity) from the Generous not from the one who threatens you with retribution, you learn humility and modesty (not superficially good akhlaq) from the one that is humble not from the one that threatens you with whips.
On the other hand (for those whom the other hand still remains), you refrain from evil because you fear the One who is Most Capable of holding you accountable..because you fear the One who is able to humble you to dust (Al-Mudhil- The Abaser).
If there are no awareness of these things, if there is no cultivation of a relationship between one's self and Allah and His Messenger - something the Prophet (saw) literally spent his entire mission doing, I am not really sure what we are trying to do. It is as if a haze of confusion has engulfed the muslims.
I have only been raised to bring about the finest character in the sons of Adam, the Prophet (alehi salam) said. How did he do it?
By whips. Not exactly. Even tho some people must be whipped, but he (alehi salam) gave people every reason to want to be of good character to the point where there could be no excuses; so that the hadd punishment can be a manifestation of justice and not a travesty of Islam. The muttaween should be a proper way to recognise and stamp out unscrupulous elements and evil in the society.... with gentleness and clear purpose....not in a rash and blinkered manner.
There needs to be a shift in emphasis.
Bismillah...
To tell you the truth, i think this post is pretty useless, and discussing this issue here this way will not bring about much benefit, instead it will only bring about argumentation.
I personally feel that it is very sad and upsetting that the body of the "commission for the promotion of virtue and prevention of vice" is being discussed this way. They have been a source of much good that has come to this country, and they have served the muslims well.
But now we find the muslims undermining their efforts in the worst way possible. This isnt sincere advice or naseehah brothers and sisters, this is an attack, plain and simple, on the commission.
Anyway, i would just like to address some of the ridiculous stuff written by the last person "anonymous". Some of the things this person said are truly ridiculous.
they said:
"This is true, but it hasn't happen that way in Saudi Arabia. Perhaps the ulama are sleeping? "
The ulama are sleeping? I dont know where to begin. Believe me brother/sister the ulama are doing anythign but sleeping. Night and day they are spending their time teaching the people. The ulama have always been there, they have been advising people, warning them, exhorting them, and best of all teaching them. Is their fault that the people dont listen? This statement can only, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY (4 TIMES), come from and ignorant person who isnt studying from the ulama himself and doesnt know what they are doing.
"The muttawa system does and will indeed prevent vice, but it can NEVER enjoin good"
What? akhi/ukhti, Allah said: "you are the best of nations brought up for mankind, you COMMAND THE GOOD AND FORBID THE EVIL..."
Allahul musta'aan
Why are you all rushing to undermine something that is good in this blessed country?
Brother Shariq,
You said:
What? akhi/ukhti, Allah said: "you are the best of nations brought up for mankind, you COMMAND THE GOOD AND FORBID THE EVIL..."
Command here is not a form of mililtaristic command. Prohibiting vice may require force, but commanding good cannot be done forcefully. To command in this verse...is basically a form of "command" that happens because your example to the world is so powerful and the effect is as if you command good. Typically, you enjoin the good through good education (tarbiyah), by providing good exemplars (not talkers), and facilitating a means for weaker people to bask in the companionship of good people.
Processes and systems are not place holders, they are there to achieve results.
I am not trying to undermine the work of the muttawas, rather I am trying to suggest that they need to re-examine why they are not achieving concrete results. Why are the youths in my area and even in the cities driving around like maniacs, they are above the law (no muttawa can touch them), why are the women wearing tight abayas and walking the malls as if they are on a catwalk, why is the society so obsessed with "jinsiyya", and act arrogant and rude. This is the trend and it cannot be denied. It is not a generalisation. You have to ask yourself all these questions given that the mutawwa is there to "enjoin" good. If we are honest about these shortcomings, then we can begin to reexamine the source of it and how to forge a way to rectify these things.
AA- All,
Thank you for everyone's insightful comments. Very thought-provoking.
1. I'm not denying the importance of the Quranic injunctions of commanding the good and forbidding the evil. Surely a society that stops calling to good while turning a blind eye to evil will incur the wrath of Allah (swt).
But how can such lofty ideals and principles be expected from a public that hasn't been taught properly? How can you force men to pray when they have no relationship with their Creator? What will prevent women from taking off their hijab when the Mutawwa leave the store?
I find it disturbing that talk of rectifying the heart is sorely missing from all efforts of the Mutawwa (and those who defend them).
2. As Anon2 mentioned, the Prophet and Companions only resorted to physical deterrence when the wrongdoers indulged in the sin despite being surrounded by a society based on upright morals and principles.
Can a similar claim be made of current day Saudi (or Iran or what have you)?
3. Additionally, my contention is that while in theory the Mutawwa were created to call people to Allah while safeguarding the limits set by Him, in reality they have trivialized our beautiful deen by choosing to command/prohibit *selected* virtues/vices.
With their seeming obsession with sex-related issues (women covering, gender mixing), they've missed the boat on real social reform.
Instead of addressing the greater evils of crass consumerism, inept education, poor parenting, and crude social skills, they've chosen to fry smaller fish, by tackling the 'plague' of women not covering and men not praying.
4. Finally, I find the argument that the Mutawwa's scope is not education or social reform to be greatly lacking. If they are the boots on the ground and they see that the strategy is failing (and society is spiraling into decay), why aren't they communicating this to the ulama and du'aat so a more relevant strategy can be devised?
I'm trying to move beyond fruitless criticism, instead hoping to open eyes to the failed approach and to suggest a more substantial solution, based mainly on addressing the hearts. This requires a restructuring of society, where lesser attention is placed on malls, cars, and bling and more attention on the family, nature, and education.
Imagine if all 5,000 members redirected their energies towards after-school programs for the youth (boys AND girls) or held regular seminars on family counseling or required education sessions for young couples getting married.
But you know what? That requires serious effort and planning, and its just so much easier to walk around barking at people to pray or cover up.
AA- Ali,
My dear brother, I never implied that the Mutawwa and their failed approach is the cause of society's ills.
I stated that their actions have simply pushed the problems out of the public sphere into the private realm (homes, istiraahas, outkirt of town, in the desert, etc.).
Do you consider that a success?
wa alaikom assalam,
i consider it more of a success than the methodology adopted in the west of "why be ashamed of yourself?", "be yourself". At least I know that our sons and daughters will not be affected within the "public" sphere as you put it; on the contrary, they'd have to go to the outskirts of towns, deserts, private homes, etc... and seek this corruption themselves (which makes it a lot harder). So yes, if you consider that to be a miserable failure - whatever rocks your boat - I consider that better than any other country I have ever visited (and they're quite a few).
I ask you the same question Naeem, you do not consider that success? And if not, as opposed to what is this NOT success?
Jazak Allah khair shariq for commenting on those baseless remarks by anonymous who apparently has no clue of the ulama in this country.
Ali
AA- Ali,
"I ask you the same question Naeem, you do not consider that success? And if not, as opposed to what is this NOT success?"
Of course I don't consider it a success, because I don't judge our accomplishments based on the West.
Compared to my standard, that which the Prophet(saw) established and which you and I aspire to, pushing the evils of society behind closed doors is a failure.
The Prophet (saw) never taught us that its acceptable to live in a society where sins are carried out recklessly behind closed doors, just as long as its not done in the open.
That is not the recipe for true success, in this life and especially in the akhira.
We shouldn't content ourselves with 'hey, at least we're not as bad as (fill in country name)'...
C'mon bro, that's weak and defeatist and you know it!
as'salamu aleikum brother Naeem,
I agree 100%! and well said!
If the Mutawwas (what ever they call themselves) were honest about their mission, they would start first with the House of Saud!
Now, I would like to hear what the supporters of this fascist police corps have to say about that!
As-salamu'alaykum warahmatulah wabarakatuh,
First, concerning Ali's comment:
He said:
"I consider that better than any other country I have ever visited (and they're quite a few)."
But me too, I find Saudi society on the whole a safer place and relative decent to live - in general.
But this is not what we are talking about. I enjoy a lot of friendship and respect from my neighbours and the people I work with, but that doesn't mean I cannot criticise and point out things that are frankly quite bad - unless I don't want any good for this society past the ones I enjoy.
Second to Shafiq,
You said:
"I dont know where to begin. Believe me brother/sister the ulama are doing anythign but sleeping. Night and day they are spending their time teaching the people. The ulama have always been there, they have been advising people, warning them, exhorting them, and best of all teaching them. Is their fault that the people dont listen? This statement can only, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY (4 TIMES), come from and ignorant person who isnt studying from the ulama himself and doesnt know what they are doing."
I am sure that tremendous efforts are going on, but the emphasis strikes me as way off target. I might be wrong. You cannot teach people with meat in their hands how to chase away dogs from their bedroom. It is futile. Do you want the meat or do you want the dog? If you don't want the dog, then let's work to get rid of the meat whilst we are maintaining a dog shooing strategy. 99.9% of the problem solved. Basically, what Naeem is saying is that if our hearts (at least my heart) is packed as the way as it is right now (with meat), it doesn't matter how much ahkam of istinja the ulama is teaching or the excellence of sadaqa he is emphasising, you are not going to be able to walk away "kiraman" (honourably) from sins. Since you still insist on having a piece of meat firmly held in your hand, the dog will always walk with you, and you will stress yourself even further as you try to shoo it away. So, shaytan's job is really easy. All he needs is a dog to mess around with you.
Hence, the ulama (tarbiyah) have to address the meat, the state of the heart (and of course actions) in a rather traditional way. The neglect of the heart and the excess focus on bodily actions has created a lopsided religious condition... a somewhat borrowed academic approach to religion. Al-muslimun fi qubur, wa islam fi kutubihim: That means (in case you don't speak arabic) - The muslims are in the graves, Islam is in their books.
I don't mean to offend anyone, and I am sorry if I have cause any offense. I am thought it would be okay to be vocal on this issue - it is not ghiba since everyone is already talking about it in the society: the non-muslim expats, the muslim expats, the drivers, the maids, etc, so it is not wrong to discuss this in a public forum. If everyone is already talking about it, I don't think they are making these things up. I know life is worse elsewhere - especially in the countries of some of those people who complain about their employers, but it would be silly to use that as an excuse not to evaluate these issues and seek to improve ourselves. It would be really silly, subhanallah! May Allah guide us.
As-salaamu Alaikum!
Let me begin by saying (for you who don't know me) that I'm not in KSA and I've never been there... which might disqualify me from speaking right now, though I can't resist!
Br. Naeem,
Jazakallahu khair for making your post. I think you made some good solid points in your post and comments, I just disagree with you on some of them. I don't regard sweeping sins off the streets and into homes as necessarily a failure. In fact, don't we know that there were some Companions who had problems with different kinds of sins, but they kept it private? Not everybody in Medina was a pillar of virtue as I understand it, and I don't mean to slander or smear any of the Companions, may Allah be pleased with them. So I'm asking... weren't private sins at least tolerated because in private they wouldn't affect the whole society?
If people have to go out of the cities to get away from the muttawa so they can engage in their bad behavior, then it means that it's less likely for, let's say your children for example, or someone else's children, to get caught up in that bad behavior, because they're not exposed to it?
People are still going to be sinful. You can't just wash everybody's heart. But it makes it easier to keep your heart pure, doesn't it, without having to drag it through the mud via constant exposure to these societal ills? And wasn't it a saying of Isa that one should remove the board in his own eye before worrying about the speck in his brother's eye?
So anyway, I agree with Brs Ali and Shariq and the posts and comments they've made... and I hope this wasn't a totally useless comment on my part. Jazakumallahu khairan for everyone thinking and writing on this subject.
Assalaamu alaikum,
I can never understand the argument that enforcing Islamic principles is wrong. Is it wrong to prohibit alcohol, murder, stealing, bribery, gambling, abuse of workers? Those are Islamic principles... I assume that you agree with enforcing laws like that. So where do you draw the line and say, "No, we shouldn't enforce this"? Is the line drawn according to what kinds of things are covered in non-Muslim societies? So, for example, enforcing traffic laws is OK, but not laws that are exclusively Islamic? Enforcing a dress code is wrong? Except that virtually everywhere, they enforce some dress code, so why shouldn't we enforce it according to our principles and not someone else's?
By your reasoning, there shouldn't be any kind of law enforcement anywhere, because every country has laws, but they all still have plenty of violations of those laws. So are all of their laws, and their law enforcement, objectionable?
I've spent a lot of time in Saudi and never been bothered by the mutawwa. A lot of people in neighboring countries wouldn't mind borrowing them to clean up the malls in their areas. ;)
And yes, it is better to have the immoral activities hidden away. Obviously, it would be better not to have any at all, and that's what we should strive for, but consider that even in Medina at the time of the Prophet himself (saw), there were Muslims (according to one definition, they were Sahaba) who drank, committed adultery, etc.
The advantage of its being hidden is that if it's in public, people start to see it enough that they consider it normal, and then they even start feeling like they're abnormal when they refrain from doing these things... you can see that if you consider how attitudes in the U.S. towards homosexuality or fornication have changed over the last couple of generations.
The mutawwa ensure that the people who don't want to see these things don't have to, and neither do their children.
(And I don't support them if they're abusing their power, although I think that some of us should learn about the life under the Calihate of Umar (ra), for example, to put things in perspective. He was harsh with wrongdoers, and he always carried a stick, which he didn't hesitate to use.)
AA- Anon,
Your meat/dog analogy was perfect and summed up my argument quite succinctly. I thank you for your focused comments on this thread.
AA- All,
To those who are arguing for the existence of a governmental body (ie. the Mutawwa) tasked with keeping the streets clean from Islamically objective activities, I have no qualms with that. I'm not calling for abolishing this body. I'm calling for a reassessment of their methodology.
Whether you wish to blame the ulama, the Mutawwa, the government, or the Bangladeshi street cleaner, you must acknowledge the pitiful state of Saudi society.
If the purpose of the Saudi religious establishment is to align society with the Quran and Sunnah, THEY ARE FAILING! It doesn't matter that businesses are closed during prayer time or women are covered or homosexuals aren't flaunting their lifestyle.
If the Prophetic lifestyle was properly seated in the hearts of society, then the outer expressions would inevitably fall into line. Why not strive for that?
And those who are proud of their streets being clean, while turning a blind eye to the countless sicknesses plaguing this society have clearly misinformed priorities. In fact, with your constant praise for the Mutawwa, you are actually fueling the fire of their incompetency.
AA-
@Amy, of course there were bad apples during the time of the Prophet (saw), but they were clearly the exception.
Madinan society was established on true inner piety, not public displays of religiosity. The Mutawwa seem to have contented themselves with the latter, as the former is too difficult.
Sure, that ideal of Madina will never be achieved, but surely we ought to strive for it with a sound methodology, no?
@Anon,
"So, for example, enforcing traffic laws is OK, but not laws that are exclusively Islamic? Enforcing a dress code is wrong?"
That's the problem with us – we view Islam as a bunch of laws. Was the Prophet's mission to simply create a society with the *appearance* of piety, enforced by laws and police?
Go ahead and enforce the dress code, but for goodness sake, teach the person the value of hayaa (Islamic modesty) first.
You can't inundate society with materialism, sex, and satellite dishes and then get upset when the young girls don't cover up.
You're putting the cart before the horse buddy.
"And yes, it is better to have the immoral activities hidden away. Obviously, it would be better not to have any at all, and that's what we should strive for,"
I find it very intellectually and spiritually lazy to argue that since we can't cleanse people's hearts (purpose of Prophet's mission), let's settle for keeping the streets clean (fruit of Prophet's mission).
We want the fruit without planting and caring for the seed. Ajeeb!
but if access to satelitte TV or othe rmedia is regulated then agaih some people have problems why are they limiting freedoms
Is it wrong to prohibit alcohol, murder, stealing, bribery, gambling, abuse of workers?
If you have satellite programs running beer advertisement, no matter how hard you prohibit alcohol, you are going to have it, not only that - people will be desentized towards it and it will become an object of adventure.
The same Islam that says prohibit stealing also tells you to give in charity (regardless of color or race), feed the hungry, clothe and shelter the needy, etc.
And so on.
Where is the muttawwa when the belly dancer was performing on the screen. But there he is when the girls are dancing in the streets (and indeed he should be there, but with brains to understand the reality behind what is in front of him).
Don't be stupid folks.
You are making fun of Islam.
"Why not teach people (dare I suggest *by example*, gasp!)"
The *gasp* at the end was really needed because that is how people react to it.
I don't have much to add here. Just following the discussion up here...good points from both sides but i lean towards re-checking the methodology of the mutawaas.
Masalaama
but if access to satelitte TV or othe rmedia is regulated then agaih some people have problems why are they limiting freedoms
Fellow anonymous,
Well, this is the point.
You need some inner regulation,...but perhaps you need to go a bit 'more' inner.
You know, we want these stuffs, so we are wasting our time with isolated regulation.
Our (collective) love for these things grew to the point where it had to happen. Nobody is imposing anything on you. These things didn't just fall out of sky on to our laps, they got there because the love (or complicity for them)for them had reached a point of no return . Demand rose and meets supply, they fall in love.
Now, you want to separate them.
How?
When the love of them leaves the heart or put differently, when the love of Allah comes into the heart, even a little regulation will go a long way. Then, people will kiss the feet of the muttawa.
As for vice-versa, it will only lead to a conscience crisis. They
It is always good to think about how you got to a place, in case you need to go back.
Salaam Naeem,
Thanks for replying to my comment. I'm not so sure that Madinan society was just established on inner piety--i.e., everyone a pious, good-hearted Muslim before ever being asked to show piety externally. And of course there were the hypocrites too. And we can read in the Qur'an what Allah (SWT) said about some desert Arabs--i.e., don't say "we believe" but rather say "we submit" because faith hasn't yet entered into their hearts. And submission is the pillars--iman is more. So there is something to be said of acting one way externally.
And there is another thing to be said of good manners. First of all, I think it's too much to expect of everyone to have good manners all the time, and to say that their manners are more important than the message and because they aren't all politeness in telling people to go pray or what have you, that their message is invalid. I don't think so.
In my da'wah class we talk about 3 levels/stages of da'wah. The first is conveying the message. If they accept the message then the second is to teach them Islam. And then third is to implement it in their lives. So your mutaween are actually like a stage-3 da'ee, kind of... right? Getting people to implement Islam. It's no use if they haven't heard the message of Islam, and haven't accepted it, and haven't learned it. It looks like the muttawa is geared more towards the implementation of Islam from people who (1) accepted Islam and (2) learned Islam.
That said, he is still doing a kind of da'wah, therefore here's a useful ayah.
16:125 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.
Naeem in original post: "My gripe is not with their abuses of power (which even their supporters condemn), but with the entire premise of enforcing Islamic principles. "
Naeem in a comment later: "To those who are arguing for the existence of a governmental body (ie. the Mutawwa) tasked with keeping the streets clean from Islamically objective activities, I have no qualms with that. I'm not calling for abolishing this body. I'm calling for a reassessment of their methodology."
I'm confused...
Asssalaamu alaikum,
Brother Naeem, I don't think anyone is saying that they should only have the mutawwa and NOT be trying to educate people and develop pious members of society, inside and out. I agree that an Islamic society is a whole system, and you can't expect some ideal society if people are inundated with materialism, sex and satellite dishes. But the mutawwa is one part of the picture; it's not an either/or.
(By the way, there certainly are many good, religious people in Saudi, and many who are trying to educate others.)
And I don't think anyone is saying that we view Islam as nothing but a bunch of laws. That's what we're talking about here because that's the topic of your post. But shariah goes hand in hand with aqeedah; an Islamic society needs both in order to be complete.
AA- Amy,
"And we can read in the Qur'an what Allah (SWT) said about some desert Arabs--i.e., don't say "we believe" but rather say "we submit" because faith hasn't yet entered into their hearts. And submission is the pillars--iman is more. So there is something to be said of acting one way externally."
I believe you misread this verse (49:14). In fact, Allah (swt) was admonishing those bedouins who merely exhibited the outer form of Islam, yet claimed to be true believers. Because Islam hadn't entered into their hearts, they were not privileged to refer to themselves as believers.
Allah (swt) is declaring that its blameworthy to carry a shell of outer piety while maintaining a hollow foundation inside.
Furthering my contention, no?
"So your mutaween are actually like a stage-3 da'ee, kind of... right?"
Excellent point sis!! You really hit the nail on the head here...the problem is that they've seriously failed in the first two steps, but are adamant on imposing the third step. Is that logical?
AA- Confused Anon,
"I'm confused..."
No need to be confused. You're right in that I contradicted myself. I stand by my second statement, having been too vague with the original statement in the post.
Instead of originally writing: "My gripe is not with their abuses of power (which even their supporters condemn), but with the entire premise of enforcing Islamic principles. "
I should have worded the last phrase "but with *their fundamental approach* to enforcing Islamic principles."
You see, I'm not an absolute libertarian who believes the rights of the individual trump all else. The collective good of society comes first.
Thus, there is a positive role to be played by a government seeking to establish (even impose) Islamic morals and values in society.
But its got to be done properly.
As the famous story of Caliph Umar (ra) with the suspension of the hudood in the times of famine teaches us, we must be wise in enforcing Islamic law.
We have been thrust into the midst of a spiritual famine, yet the Mutawwa are insisting on enforcing the punishment for our immoral ways, instead of directing their energies to nourishing our hearts and souls.
Interesting how the post that asked why they dont start with the House of Saud went unanswered by everyone. I agree with that poster...if they believe its their job to enforce the people to be good and follow the deen...then why dont they start at the top and work their way down...rather than start at the bottom(common people) and stay there?
Violence does not encourage people to be good...it only makes them try harder not to get caught...and builds resentment over time...not very Islamic or healthy.
Salaam Naeem,
Thanks for replying to my comment! You might be right about that verse about the bedouin but I still don't think I'm wrong. I was just kind of making the point that not everyone is going to be perfect inside but calling themselves Muslims at least is a start... and I'll admit that I could definitely be wrong.
So, if we think of the mutawwas as being a stage-3 da'ee, then consider their audience: those people who have (1) accepted Islam already and (2) learned Islam. Most of the society probably accepts Islam as a given, but there are of course du'aa (I think? aren't there?) devoted to calling people to Islam inside even the Kingdom. And there should be a full-scale way of teaching Islam. Opportunities for women to learn, and to teach their children, ways for men to learn as well (including Friday khutbahs.)
The role of the mutawwa though seems specific on stage 3, the implementation. But if nobody else is doing the first two jobs... then somebody should be doing them. :-)
AA- CoolRed,
I’ve never been a strong proponent of positive change coming from the top. Quranic history as well as modern history teaches us the powers that be will never embrace change for the better and more often than not, will stand in the way of it.
Naeem...dont misunderstand me and assume I meant it was actually possible for the House of Saud(or any other Muslim country royal family/dictator) to be changed merely by being rapped with a stick...Im just pointing out the clear hypocrisy that the mutawwa completely ignore them and focus solely on the common people.
Ive never been face to face with one...but I always wonder what would happen if you just grabbed the stick and rapped them back...maybe the sheer audacity alone would shock them into backing down...you think? Sorry...but it makes me giggle just thinking about it...I realize it can be a dangerous reaction...but even knowing that...I would still like to give it a try.
AA- CoolRed,
"but I always wonder what would happen if you just grabbed the stick and rapped them back...maybe the sheer audacity alone would shock them into backing down"
LOL! True, their initial reaction would be shock (allowing you time to make a run for it), but once they gathered themselves, they would call the policeman who always accompanies them to intimidate/arrest you...so that's why most people simply comply and walk away cursing them under their breath...
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