As requested by a commenter, I created this open thread for any questions on life in Saudi Arabia. I've only been here 5 years, but I'll try and share whatever information I can.
But first, allow me to share a conversation I was having with a few friends last week.
We were discussing how people who settle down in Saudi have to really *want* to be here. There are so many obstacles and inconveniences here that make it actually very difficult to stay. To use an IT term, the environment here is not the most 'user-friendly'. And so it seems that those who have chosen to remain (for other than financial reasons) must really have a strong desire to stay.
Of course, no place on earth is perfect, but it sometimes seems like society here is trying to just make it difficult. From little things like the rude Saudi ladies at the checkout aisle to bigger problems like the bureaucratic run-around you go through every time you interact with a government ministry, there are really so many issues that can drive a person mad.
But at the same time, there are so many nice features in this bizarro world, that if you're willing to overlook all the surrounding negative, life here can actually be quite enjoyable.
OK, so I'll start with the questions put forth by Anonymous:
"is it true what they say about Saudi being a place you can save? compared to living in the US for instance?"
That depends on how much you make here versus what you were making there. But generally speaking, its true that you can save here. Cost of living here is cheaper than in the US. Prices were steady for the first 4 years of my stay and only in the past year have prices really started to rise.
Depending on where you live in the US, rent may be cheaper here in Riyadh. Food is overall cheaper and of course, gasoline is practically given away at the pump (45cents/gallon). There is no sales tax or income tax here, so you save there as well. And if you can adjust to local goods, as opposed to needing expensive products imported from the West, then you really start saving.
"Like, whats a decent salary? And you can compare the salaries there to the salaries to give us an idea of what is affordable in a said amount of salary there. How much do certain schools cost? How about compounds? What is there for women to do?"
Its hard to talk about a good salary because everyone has a different standard, but let me try to give you an idea. Someone with three kids making $65K in the US (living in the costly NorthEast) can afford the same lifestyle here with a job paying 10K riyals/month (salary is measured by month here, not by year). That comes to around $32K/year. Again, I'm making A LOT of assumptions here, all revolving around the lifestyle that will make one comfortable.
There are so many variables involved in making such calculations. For example, many companies provide a housing allowance (common is 3months worth of salary). 30K rent (rent is measured by year, not by month) will get you a very nice house. Forget about the nicer western compounds as they cost over 100K/year. Other lesser compounds which may be affordable on that salary aren't really worth it.
Another issue is the schooling. Private international schools that teach in English are very expensive costing around 15K/year (which is around the tuition for an Islamic school in the US). Many people go the cheaper route and send their kids to Saudi public schools, but there are a lot of social challenges (language is the least of them) that your kids will have to overcome in that environment.
Women have many outlets, if they choose to pursue them. However, women have a strong clique mentality and if they don't find the right crowd of women to socialize with, they tend to close those outlets off for themselves. There are daytime Islamic classes, evening Quranic classes, all-women clubs, and so on. The western expat community (mainly non-Muslims) has created a subculture for themselves, if that interests you.
I'm rambling, so if anyone has any detailed questions, feel free to ask. And if anyone with their own Saudi experience wants to jump in with their advice, you're most welcome!
WAW
2 days ago
16 comments:
How about broadband and internet access in general? I heard that internet speeds over there are pathetic.
Assalamu alaikum
Do you know of any place in Riyadh where women can learn martial arts... from a woman?
The only place I could find was at the Philipino school/embassy but they're taught by a man.
Jazak Allah Khair
I know the govt officially has a lot of restrictions on women - but are they like followed by the everyday person? Does the average person on the street also believe that women shouldn't drive, should remain veiled and not be a part of society?
Basically - how does the average saudi view womens rights. gay rights. nonmuslim rights. (Not the official govt response which I understand may not be reflective of the societal mindset).
AA-
@Anon1, the internet speeds are actually very respectable, depending on where you live. If you can get DSL to your house, I hear its very nice. The other popular option is the cellphone companies. They have a monthly plan (around $100/month) where you can get hi-speed net over their cell network. As long as your near to one of their towers (most of the city, except our compound! aarrgh!), its a great deal.
@Misfit, did you try the Diplomatic Quarters? They have this special woman's only all-around gym/spa/pool. I hear they have lots of nice amenities...a bit costly. Not sure if martial arts is on their list...might be tough in this country where female phys-ed is nonexistent in the school system. :-(
@Anon2, it depends on which class of Saudi you talk to. The upper, educated class is more liberal and many of their wives/daughter drive when they go to Bahrain, UAE, Jordan, etc.
The middle/lower class is more conservative and is easily swayed by the religious leaders. And even if you were to remove the religion factor, they have an extremely strong cultural stigma against empowering the women. I believe its more rooted in the Bedouin, tribal culture than in Islam.
In fact, the government mindset (at least that of the royal family) is more leaning towards the liberal lifestyle, but its the vast conservative majority that keeps them from any major social reform.
Everything is increasing in price here at the moment. One compound I know (average) was 80K last year and went up to 120K at the end of December, maybe it's increased again. Another I know of was 90K last year, then 125, and last month apparently newcomers were charged 160K (again fairly average). I hear that some of the very 'Western' oriented compounds are now charging 250K plus (Arizona, AlHamra et al).
Schools... I think the international schools that have Arabic on the curriculum (Manarat, Choueifat, Rowad etc) are arond 15K per year but if you look to the American school it canbe up to 40K and the Brit school up to 30K probably even more when it comes to A-Levels which they will be introducing later this year.
ASDL seems to be improving and the cost going down now that there is competition. We are stuck with no choice on our compound and have only the option of compound provided ASDL which is pricey but I spoke to a friend today who has paid 120R for 3 months broadband with Nesma (256K speed) which is a massive improvement in price!
All the martial arts teachers I know of are Philippino men!
The women's "clique" thing is totally true. Especially among expat women. I found that many women who reside in Saudi are not so friendly and very judgemental and competitive about everything -from household duties to grocery shopping, learning, child rearing, you name it. Many individuals also seemed to perfect the skill of backbiting and nosing into the personal lives of others. I think the majority of the reasons behind this behaviour were directly related to social & physical isolation and lack of means to do something positive with themselves when they had a desire to. Whatever it may be, I definately feel a lot of women displayed signs of depression and frustration, which became more evident upon observation of their behaviour and habits and conversation. I think many expat women go through some sort of identity crisis and cultural isolation which seems to have adverse affects particulary for those women who have not had the chance to visit their native country in years....I personally know a handful of women who have not seen their relatives or country in more than 5 years. Men tend to feel less of the hardship and sometimes may add fuel to the fire by making negative decisions or comments in regards to their wives. It's important for men to put themselves in their wives shoes and imagine her life compared to theirs. Husbands play a major role in helping their wives adjust physically and mentally. Speaking from experience, it's a big plus for husbands to go out of their way to help facilitate social connections and activities for their wives. More so in terms of forming a good and reliable circle of friends whom meet regularly. Often times, the women would have separte friends whose husbands would never meet theirs. These types of relationships usually had the most problems, whereas circles of women whose husbands also were friends, appeared to produce the best results. Allahu Alim.
Sorry for such a long post, but hope the point is made clear.
Keep up the good work!
AA- UmmIbrahim,
I really appreciate your invaluable input. Let me add my 2cents to your points:
1. The compound issue is pretty much a no-brainer. Unless your company is paying for it, western compounds are out of the question. Many people are perfectly happy living in rented villas, but the biggest problem is for the family as the villas do not afford them the space to run around and play outside.
2. My logic with the school issue is that back in the US, Islamic schools typically cost around $4K/year, so that same amount is what I'm spending here at Manarat...and those who can't afford it choose the public Saudi school system. However, there is a middle ground with smaller private schools like Pakistani, Indian international schools or other Arab private schools (with english medium) consisting of mostly arabs from Syria or Jordan.
3. UmmIbrahim, have you tried the Mobily Connect service. If you get the high-speed service in your area, the cost (350riyals/month) may be reasonable for you.
AA- Anon,
"it's a big plus for husbands to go out of their way to help facilitate social connections and activities for their wives. More so in terms of forming a good and reliable circle of friends whom meet regularly."
You really hit the nail on the head with your comment. In fact, any family planning on coming to Saudi needs to give serious thought to your comment. There is so much truth there.
"It's important for men to put themselves in their wives shoes and imagine her life compared to theirs. Husbands play a major role in helping their wives adjust physically and mentally."
I agree that there is an inordinate amount of stress and difficulty in making the adjustment for the sisters. The men have to exhibit enormous patience in helping their counterparts.
The lack of family and acceptable social circles are a major source of problem for so many western expats here...
No matter how easy life is made over here (with the modernization and dare I say westernization of Saudi), the social factor still plays the largest factor in deciding the mental/emotional well-being of the family.
Thanks so much for your comment sister!
Assallamu alaikum brother,
How does one go about trying to get a job in saudi, when applying from overseas?
AA- Amoola,
Finding a job here is quite tricky, especially for those who aren't already here.
Its best to know someone here, especially someone in the company you are applying with. Connections are the most common way of getting hired.
International companies post openings on their websites, but from my experience they aren't very good at contacting you back unless you know someone working there, who can push your CV into the right hands.
That doesn't mean people aren't hired any other way - I've just found that route to be the easiest and most common.
There is one trick that many people have used and depending on how badly you wish to come here, it can work. English teachers are sorely needed over here, so finding a job in that field is extremely easy (anyone with a degree is basically guaranteed a job).
I know of several brothers who came over here as teachers and in the meanwhile looked for the jobs in their field after they arrived.
Otherwise, the only other alternative is the online job sites like monstergulf.com or jobserve.com.
One general note to all readers considering work in the Gulf. There is no income tax, so when considering salary packages, calculate the tax savings. For example $30k/year here compares to $50k/year in the US (even more depending on where you live in the US, for example DC, Northern VA is very expensive)
Just wanted to make that point clear. ALL income here is tax free AND its all deductible in the US (upto $84k/year).
Very informative, Naeem. How do you address the school issue with you children ? If you send your children to a Saudi school, what challenges to you observe ?
WA,
Greg
AA- Greg,
"How do you address the school issue with you children ? If you send your children to a Saudi school, what challenges to you observe ?"
We send our kids to a private international school that teaches in English and has had many graduates go off to reputable colleges all over the world. Our choice to stick with English was after a one-year experiment where we sent Maryam to 1st grade in an all-Arabic private school.
It was very rough for so many reasons. First, she didn't adjust to the language barrier. She was always sticking to the teacher, never feeling comfortable around the girls. Second, we weren't able to help her sufficiently with her homework. We were barely getting by and this was only 1st grade!
And the final straw was the multiple flyers/notes that came home (in Arabic) for fun days that we never bothered to translate, so she'd go to school in her uniform, empty-handed (no money), and return in tears. And that didn't just happen once.
So, we decided to forgo her learning Arabic and put both of the kids in an English-medium school.
BTW, sending her to a public Saudi school was NEVER an option. I've heard horror stories on how the local kids will eat foreign kids alive!
Its a sad state of affairs here, but its a reality nonetheless. The Saudi kids are very rough and harsh and brash...even the younger ones. So we spared our kids that challenge.
Guys,
I am a canadian Muslim of Pakistani heritage and will be moving to Saudi in a couple of months.
I'm looking for a place in a western compound. I've heard that a number of compounds do not allow people to wear hijabs etc. My wife wears a simple hijab with general western clothing. Are there any compounds out there that are so called "Muslim friendly"?
Is 17k (SR) a good housing allowance? My family needs a clean spacious 3 bedroom apartment in decent area of town to live in.
And is 25k(SR) a good schooling allowance? we'd like to send our son to preschool(how much are those?) .. and when older..we'd like him to go to something like minarat...so in view of that..how good is that?
Also, how much do maids and drivers cost?
A part time maid..are those easy to get? cuz mostly i tend to hear about live-in maids.
as for drivers..is there such a thing as a part-time driver? how much are those. any ball park figures?
Is it a good idea to live in apartments? Can the woman go outside at all during the day, for a walk? or is that even a strange idea considering that its so hot usualy in the daytime?
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